Forum ettiquette and the "snark" factor

[Blueberry3.14]

I don't know how many people will see this under "General Discussion", but I'll give it a shot anyway.

Although my website hardly reflects it, I've been doing hosting since 2003. I've tried many different billing systems (WHMAP, Lpanel, AWBS, ModernBill), plus a few I tried to install but didn't work with my system (namely UberSmith).

With each new system, I found the best place to learn was the support forums. I read, I use the search function, but especially with a system that processes receivables, the frustration factor can escalate when the answer can't be found. What may be simple to someone outside of the situation isn't always to the person who's been up all night tearing their hair out with a problem.

I spend a lot of time on the cPanel forums and I too get tired of reading/answering really BASIC, stupid questions. IMO, anyone who calls themselves a web host should KNOW what SSH is. You'd be amazed how many in that forum *don't*. Now to me, that is the ultimate in "stupid questions." Yet there are still people who answer them, politely and patiently.

Back to my point. In all of the billing software forums I've been in/around, there's always been a certain group of snarky people, who seem to revel in knowing something no one else does. The snarkiness feeds upon itself, much like a group of schoolyard bullies.

In the WHMAP it got BAD, and surprisingly the worst offenders were the moderators. Some of them ended up being fired over their attitudes with paying customers.

I've been here since November 2006. Aside from one heck of a KICK-ASS product, and Matt being really easy to communicate with (not all programmers are), I've loved the helpful atmosphere of this forum. People come in here to help each other, not to get into "oneupmanship" or play games when someone has a question or problem.

Lately I see that changing, which is why I'm writing this. Not only with me (I don't post all that much), but with others who have valid questions. I see the "snark factor" creeping into these forums.

None of us are perfect, on either side. We all ask "stupid questions" on occasion, and sometimes even the brightest person can miss the obvious. IMO, a straightforward question deserves an honest, straightforward answer....or none at all. Playing games like "You missed something...guess what it is?" or "Which one of these doesn't belong?" is rarely helpful.

If your motive in replying to a forum question isn't to help out but to prove you know something they don't...that's pretty sad. I don't know about anyone else, but my time is far too valuable to play the "mine's bigger than yours" games. Besides, I'm female...so I guess I'm automatically disqualified.

The snark is evil. The snark is counterproductive, and I've seen it nearly kill good forums. I'm hoping that doesn't happen here.

[intramanga]

In all of the billing software forums I've been in/around, there's always been a certain group of snarky people, who seem to revel in knowing something no one else does. The snarkiness feeds upon itself, much like a group of schoolyard bullies.

Not only on billing forums , but unfortunately this is a true fact that I also see more and more on a lot of forums.
This together with forums full of moderators who maintain their own unwritten rules and act like they are God themselves , blocking and removing posts for no reason , except that they don't like the post, are making forums these days sometimes an unpleasant place to be where nobody can express themselves freely anymore.

I really hope this wont happen here ...

My 2C,
Ed,

[Blueberry3.14]

In all of the billing software forums I've been in/around, there's always been a certain group of snarky people, who seem to revel in knowing something no one else does. The snarkiness feeds upon itself, much like a group of schoolyard bullies.

Not only on billing forums , but unfortunately this is a true fact that I also see more and more on a lot of forums.
This together with forums full of moderators who maintain their own unwritten rules and act like they are God themselves , blocking and removing posts for no reason , except that they don't like the post, are making forums these days sometimes an unpleasant place to be where nobody can express themselves freely anymore.

I really hope this wont happen here ...

My 2C,
Ed,

I hear ya...sadly, I've seen that too. The WHMAP and Lpanel forums were the worst, IMO, for that sort of thing. And on some of the forums, the search function was basically broken, which made getting a snarky reply of "Well if you'd use the search function..." all the more frustrating. (That hasn't happened to me *here*, but in the WHMAP forum).

I don't know about anyone else, but I ask a question in any forum as a LAST resort, not a first. I would much rather find the answer myself than ask the question. I've been trying to change this, because it's counterproductive to spend 5-8 hours on Google, rather than just *ask* for help...but that's sort of hard-coded into my personality.

I gotta say again...I think WHMCS totally *rocks*, and I love using it. I can only see great things ahead for WHMCS as a product. I don't want to see anything hamper that success.

[Webdomain.com]

Wise and cleaver post.
Unfortunately, even if I totally agree with all these statements, I believe this kind of effects are unfortunately unavoidable.
I believe nobody's perfect and I met quiet often uncompetent moderators rather than competent moderators. (as often as arrogant members!!!)
Anyway, WHMCS seems a robust product, Matt is able to manage everything friendly, professionnally and smoothly.
Although I would like to see more developper in his production team, I am truly confident in the future of this venture.
I only hope they won't follow the trace of Modernbill.

Keep up the good work!

[bear]

In the WHMAP it got BAD, and surprisingly the worst offenders were the moderators. Some of them ended up being fired over their attitudes with paying customers.

I know exactly to whom you are referring here. One particular person is essentially the same in everything he does...I've run into him since.

I have seen a bit of the snarkiness here too, but not from staff, and frankly I don't understand why they do it. If you don't want to answer a newbie question, just don't post.

This together with forums full of moderators who maintain their own unwritten rules and act like they are God themselves , blocking and removing posts for no reason , except that they don't like the post, are making forums these days sometimes an unpleasant place to be where nobody can express themselves freely anymore.
I really hope this wont happen here ...

Matt would never stand for it. Speaking for myself, I mod on quite a few forums, and try my best to be helpful and tolerant of "dumb" questions. It's how I learned myself, and I owe that back to the communities I frequent.

[Adamski]

and as one of those who posts the dumb questions I am grateful!

[intramanga]

I mod on quite a few forums, and try my best to be helpful and tolerant of "dumb" questions.

Being a moderator is not only a question of being helpful and tolerant , it is a lot more than that , like making the right judgements , let people speak freely , even if you don't like what they write (speak freely obviously does not mean flaming) , but speaking freely is a right in almost every educated country.
And also please , do not just invent new rules on the fly.
I have to admit that is is not always an easy job ( I couldn't do it ), but after all a forum has a lot of purposes , many good and obviously some less. And if you take such a job (which I admire), you should do it in the interest of ALL , not only in your own , or the owners.

Again my 2C
Ed,

[Blueberry3.14]

[quote="bear"]

I know exactly to whom you are referring here. One particular person is essentially the same in everything he does...I've run into him since.

The snarkiness seemed to spread to others, too. It got to where no one could ask a legitimate question without being jumped on by a mod and told to use the search feature. Their forums search feature was sorely lacking. Searching is always the first thing I do.

I even asked one mod what search terms he used, including operators (+, AND, whatever) to get the results he did. He told me, I used them exactly, I still couldn't find the posts he said were there.

But really....why have an interactive forum just to tell people to search? A knowledge base would suffice. And it wasn't something I took personally, because I mostly just read (and friggin SEARCHED) for the answers. I saw what happened when users asked questions.

It was a shame to see that happen. Brandee was a nice guy, but one person can't be everywhere.

I have seen a bit of the snarkiness here too, but not from staff,

Oh, heavens no. I hope my comments didn't come across to imply that the staff (well OK, there's Matt...and I know of one mod here, who seems very cool, not sure if there's any other "staff") has been anything but helpful. Matt's always been great, and very helpful and patient.

and frankly I don't understand why they do it. If you don't want to answer a newbie question, just don't post.

That's my thought too. I swear, there's a new breed of trolls. "Forum trolls." LOL!

[Blueberry3.14]

Wise and cleaver post.

You just made my day. Thanks

Unfortunately, even if I totally agree with all these statements, I believe this kind of effects are unfortunately unavoidable.
I believe nobody's perfect and I met quiet often uncompetent moderators rather than competent moderators. (as often as arrogant members!!!)

True, but I figured it was worth a shot, anyway.

I only hope they won't follow the trace of ModernBill.

Bite your tongue! lol
ModernBill has been good for one thing. Bringing me business. I've gotten new clients who couldn't stand being an end-user of a host using MB during MB's last "upgrade."

Keep up the good work!

Muchly agreed.

[addeacher]

You got some very good point and thanks for taking the time to point these thigs out i hope want and wish for this forum to be one of the best.

I don't know how many people will see this under "General Discussion", but I'll give it a shot anyway.

Although my website hardly reflects it, I've been doing hosting since 2003. I've tried many different billing systems (WHMAP, Lpanel, AWBS, ModernBill), plus a few I tried to install but didn't work with my system (namely UberSmith).

With each new system, I found the best place to learn was the support forums. I read, I use the search function, but especially with a system that processes receivables, the frustration factor can escalate when the answer can't be found. What may be simple to someone outside of the situation isn't always to the person who's been up all night tearing their hair out with a problem.

I spend a lot of time on the cPanel forums and I too get tired of reading/answering really BASIC, stupid questions. IMO, anyone who calls themselves a web host should KNOW what SSH is. You'd be amazed how many in that forum *don't*. Now to me, that is the ultimate in "stupid questions." Yet there are still people who answer them, politely and patiently.

Back to my point. In all of the billing software forums I've been in/around, there's always been a certain group of snarky people, who seem to revel in knowing something no one else does. The snarkiness feeds upon itself, much like a group of schoolyard bullies.

In the WHMAP it got BAD, and surprisingly the worst offenders were the moderators. Some of them ended up being fired over their attitudes with paying customers.

I've been here since November 2006. Aside from one heck of a KICK-ASS product, and Matt being really easy to communicate with (not all programmers are), I've loved the helpful atmosphere of this forum. People come in here to help each other, not to get into "oneupmanship" or play games when someone has a question or problem.

Lately I see that changing, which is why I'm writing this. Not only with me (I don't post all that much), but with others who have valid questions. I see the "snack factor" creeping into these forums.

None of us are perfect, on either side. We all ask "stupid questions" on occasion, and sometimes even the brightest person can miss the obvious. IMO, a straightforward question deserves an honest, straightforward answer....or none at all. Playing games like "You missed something...guess what it is?" or "Which one of these doesn't belong?" is rarely helpful.

If your motive in replying to a forum question isn't to help out but to prove you know something they don't...that's pretty sad. I don't know about anyone else, but my time is far too valuable to play the "mine's bigger than yours" games. Besides, I'm female...so I guess I'm automatically disqualified.

The snark is evil. The snark is counterproductive, and I've seen it nearly kill good forums. I'm hoping that doesn't happen here.

[Blueberry3.14]

You got some very good point and thanks for taking the time to point these thigs out i hope want and wish for this forum to be one of the best.

Hey, looking at your location. Earth.

OMG, me too!!! Small world

LOL! Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Adam]

Hey, looking at your location. Earth.

OMG, me too!!! Small world

LOL! Sorry, couldn't resist.

Speaking of locations, we are in the same state!

From,
Adam

[Blueberry3.14]

Speaking of locations, we are in the same state!

From,
Adam

I know, ya silly goose

I was the one who emailed you, asking about the live chat you use. I stumbled upon "Meebo" through Word Press, and even though it's Beta, it seems to be what I was looking for.

Thanks again for the replies.

[bear]

and I know of one mod here, who seems very cool, not sure if there's any other "staff")

There are three mods that I know of: myself, datahosts and Sean. We don't need to do a lot of moderation except to help out users where we can, remove spammers and some "behind the scenes" stuff like moving or merging. Really good group of members so far so work is minimal.

[Blueberry3.14]

and I know of one mod here, who seems very cool, not sure if there's any other "staff")

There are three mods that I know of: myself, datahosts and Sean. We don't need to do a lot of moderation except to help out users where we can, remove spammers and some "behind the scenes" stuff like moving or merging. Really good group of members so far so work is minimal.

Dohhhhhhh! :o *You* were the mod I was thinking of. Don't let it go to your head.

I wonder if a forum plugin (like Akismet is for WordPress) would help with the spam?